Malte

@Malte@feddit.de

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Malte ,

It is shitty that civilians get caught up in this but I feel it's a lot as if Nazi germany accused the allies of genocide in WW2. There simply is no moral base for this. And let's not forget Hamas was also voted into power at some point.

Malte ,

What? What I mean is if you vote for the extremists, don't be suprised pickachu face if your male population is decimated and your capital looks like Berlin 1945 afterwards.

Malte ,

It's not like public opinion has changed much in palestine, check the other comments for sources.

But ultimately I believe that people are responsible for their government. If you are born in gaza, realize that Hamas is shit but don't try to bring change through protests or organizing opposition and also don't leave but stay, go on with your live and pay your taxes to Hamas etc. then you're part of the problem. Otherwise what is left? Hamas being untouchable due to the people acting as human shields? In my book that's way worse.

Malte ,

If Trumps insanity escalates too much and you fail to distance yourself sufficiently then at one point thats the only way.

Think about it from the other side: was it wrong to accept collateral damage to german civilians in order to stop the Nazis? How is this different?

Malte ,

Still they don't do anything to bring change.

Malte ,

Same story, ultimately russians are responsible for Putin.

Malte ,

I disagree. Israel is not targeting civilians, they are getting caught up because Hamas uses human shield tactics that maximize civilian deaths. Israel also is not in to destroy palestine or for revenge, they are in for destroying Hamas. And when dealing with extremists you have to go for full surrender, always was like this thoughout history and it's also true here. War has changed that's true and Israel is making use of that to minimize civilian deaths, did you note how they are using guided bombs instead if carpet bombing for instance? Still it's impossible to save every innocent civilian and it is an infeasible standard for a war even in this day and age.

Malte ,

You mean the blockades where Israel supplies Gaza with water and electricity? And you think after what happened Israel should just accept Hamas at their border and wait it out for the next attack?

Sucks for the kids but it's also pretty bad for the Israeli children that are still in captivity btw. Should Israel just give up on them?

Malte , (edited )

So the palestinians are being victimized both by Hamas and Israel and they have no control of their live whatsoever? If this is your take then why do they choose to stay and why do they choose to bring kids into an environment like this?

Malte ,

If you don't want to risk your life at the very least you can stop contributing and leave. And personally that would also have been my choice.

Palestinians had plenty of options and a shit ton of development aid and charity money to improve their place. Hamas was far from their only option.

Malte ,

I mean that's exactly what I am talking about. How was Israel in a position to cut anything? Because it was them supplying in the first place. To you expect them to keep on feeding and supplying after the attacks? You kill my festival goers and cry foul if I stop giving water and electricity in return? Maybe don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Malte ,

Bullshit, the invader didn't exactly come unprovoked did it? People couldve stayed inside Gaza and live peacefully but no that's not enough somehow. They somehow have to constantly attack their neighbour and then cry foul when they loose. When they could've just as well directed this energy into improving Gaza and making it more liveable. And of course Hamas is merely fighting oppression, after all parading naked bodies of girls that they raped to death is just what freedom fighters do right?

Malte ,

Im referring to the case of Shani Louk among others, go look up the videos if you can stomach it. Somehow I don't see this behaviour on IDF side, they also don't attack music festivals or take 4yo kids as hostages. Hamas has lost any credibility and certainly has no moral right to anything anymore. The case of settlements might be shitty but they are no justification for any of this.

Malte ,

I mean maybe the way Israel was set up was not correct but it's been a long time ago and it's time to let go. This is revisionist, just like Putin arguing how he wants the soviet union back or China vs. Taiwan. Israel is a fact for a long time now, there is no good way to change this now so maybe look forward and try for peaceful coexistance.

And yes the settlement policies and other things are bad, I'm not saying that everything Israel is doing is 100% good. But it's on an entirely different level and the ends don't always justify the means. If you try to fight this by being a babarian horde using human shield tactics and by parading dead girls with their tits out through the streets of Gaza then don't expect my support.

Malte ,

This is not at all what I said and you are making assumptions that are not true. Like Israel is attacking unprovoked just for the sake of it? That's bullshit. And Israel routinely kills random civilians out of cruelty? That's simply not true. Yes civilians sometimes end up as collateral damage but it is never the direct intention. The IDF has processes in place to determine when and where to attack and every single one is based on intel and reasonable probability that legit combatants and targets are hit. Are they always right? Of course not. Do they accept civilian casualties if that can't be avoided? Of course they do. That doesn't change the fact that civilians are not attacked unprovoked just like that out of cruelty or in order to genocide them.

The same can't be said about Hamas music festival attacks and that precisely is the difference.

Malte ,

Did I say I approve the land stealing and settlement policies? What I said is that going on a killing spree and running amok on a music festival is not an acceptable reaction, even if you're being treated unfair and your land is being stolen. And if your government thinks it is then this kinda does become your responsibility.

Malte ,

I mean there are also legal frameworks in place that prohibit kidnapping your neighbours kids and shooting up their music festivals. Somehow Hamas gets to break this but Israel is still bound to Oslo accords?

Malte ,

Sorry but even if we assume somehow all other ways are exhausted and violence is your last resort, going after the kids and the festivalgoers is never justified under any circumstances. Maybe if Hamas wouldve directed the fight at the people that have bit to do with the situation like police or army who also use violence to enforce shitty policies.

But with the way things are and the actions Hamas did I don't have to think twice, I'll side with Israel and IDF. They are not perfect but still the way way better option.

Malte ,

That is not at all what I said. And I do indeed not believe Israel is genociding palestinians. The settlement policies are shitty but they do not equal genocide. Refusing supplies if Hamas takes control of them, that's also not too much to ask. And if Hamas declines, who is it now that is denying supplies to palestinians? It's a shitty situation but no, genocide is something else entirely.

I grew up in Germany and you're right, that might have influenced my views about how people are responsible for their government and how extremism has consequences.

Malte ,

Well I think you also forfeit some of our your legal rights after you commit crimes? And certainly that doesn't make Israel a rogue nation or just as bad as Hamas. There's nuance and middle ground, it's not black and white. The USA one-sidedly canceled the Iran nuclear treaty and the Paris climate agreement and they never accepted the ICC, that's shitty but would you argue it makes them a rogue nation just as bad as Hamas? I don't think so.

Malte ,

Of course I do see the facist tendencies also in Israel and their government. And of course, I never said what happened to palestine now and before is all fun and games. It's just that I think Hamas and leaving them unchecked is so much worse. That's it really, choosing the lesser of two evils.

Malte , (edited )

That's quite a big and hefty "just because". And also shooting up a music festival is not "standing up to the fight", there was no fight there at all. And also there are plenty of other options. If you don't want to fight and risk your life, what about instead of going after the kids you just move elsewhere and maybe support the cause from exile, organizing opposition doing lobby work etc. I get that it is shitty to leave your place like this. But how is shooting up a music festival somehow the more reasonable option?

Malte ,

In my book it's more like Hamas=Hitler and bombing Gaza=bombing Dresden if we want to keep the analogies.

And also your twisting my words, I was talking about targeting kids. The question is are the kids dying because they are actively being targeted or because Hamas dug a tunnel under their house. That's a difference. And actively targeting kids is 100% not IDF military doctrine, the same is evidently not true for Hamas.

Malte ,

The right to not be killed on a music festival outweighs the right to free water and electricity. It doesn't make Israel and Hamas equally bad or rogue. And wether you name it collateral damage or collective punishment I guess that's what war is like, sucks but always was like this and really there is no good way around it. Because what is the alternative? Israel directly supplying Hamas who they are at war with?

Malte ,

Wtf you're making this about my family background now? Which by the way is german for as far as I can trace it back, and that's quite a few generations. But how is this relevant?

And you're mixing stuff up, like Afghanistan also has quite a different population density and consists of desert for a large part, that might have something to do with it don't you think? And the nature of the conflict is also quite different.

And you know what? I'm not even denying that atrocities like Annan building happen also on IDF side. But these are nutjubs that act without IDF chain of command approval and without following standard IDF processes. And there is a legal system in place where they are being dealt with and punished. Is it still unfair? Of course it is. But in palestine terrorist attackers are hailed as martyrs and their families get payouts by Hamas. That still makes the Israeli side much better in my view.

And also it's not Israel vs. the rest of the world as you make it out to be. Israel is far from isolated on this and for a good reason.

Malte ,

The situation is just way more nuanced and not so simple as you make it out to be. Like did you note how Israel is actually not outright denying all supplies, they just want to not have it controlled by Hamas. That is a very reasonable thing and an absolute good faith try to keep the supplies going. If Hamas basically declines then how is it Israel denying water or starving millions of people? I don't think Oslo accords demand for all supplies to go through your enemy military.

Malte ,

I don't know, you're down to personal insults now and framing me as a bad human? So I'm falling for pro Israel propaganda? Have you considered that maybe it is you who is falling for Hamas propaganda?

Malte ,

You couldn't hurt me if you tried, it's just that this is not a basis for discussion.

And maybe look at the sources yourself, does it say Israel and IDF are the sole cause and the only side to blame for this? That part is just your interpretation.

And actually I'm curious, what do you think how Israel should react to the attacks? Roll over and take it to the chin? Just surrender and let the killings and rocket attacks happen? Because apparently Hamas outsmarted them and human shield tactics are supposed to work? Better directly surrender then, since confronting Hamas is equal to genocide? Is that it?

Malte ,

I mean for real, you're accusing me of falling for Israel propaganda but don't you see how you are using propaganda rhetoric yourself? Like always twisting my words and not only mine, you're misrepresenting your sources.

Like Mrs Bahous "women and children pay the highest price" of course that's spot on and nothing about it is controversial. But given that, how do you jump to the conclusion that Israel is genociding the people of palestine? Or that Israel is actively targeting women and children? These are entirely different things.

And always throwing this accusation of genocide around as if it is the killer argument to end all discussion. And it's not true I'm sorry. Did Israel not publicly announce their military campaign weeks in advance and tell people to evacuate from the northern regions and the conflict zones? Don't they have this roof knocking thing going on? Are these not facts? Are these not measures to minimize the civilian deaths? Is this what genocide looks like to you? How on earth does this make sense if Israel is on a mission to kill all civilians and eradicate the people of palestine? Don't you see the contradiction? It's so stupid, when at the same time you could have argued that maybe Israels reaction is out of proportion or maybe their cost-benefit analysis is off. That would have given your arguments so much more credibility and could have been a meaningful basis for discussion. But no, it always has to be all or nothing, Israel is the evil zionist empire conspiring to control the world and genociding peaceful civilians out of pure and baseless hate.

And you're evading my arguments and also my questions if they become to hard? If civilian deaths=automatic genocide and if Hamas is hiding among civilians, then what should Israels reaction have been? And please don't give me any bullshit answers. I'm not asking what they should have done in the past and I'm not asking what they should not have done. I'm asking what do you think would be the appropriate reaction to this recent episode of the conflict.

Malte ,

Where did I talk about absolution? You're doing it again, you're being dishonest and you refuse to even acknowledge what I'm saying. How is it not you rolling on the floor crying foul? And you want sources for the obvious? Like what, you want sources on the roof knocking or the public announcement? Is that your best counter argument?

And no, it is not the rest of the world and it is not the United Nations that stand united against Israel. You want me to post a source on how the US, UK, Germany and 56 other countries voted last time? If you want to convince anyone please stick to the facts!

Malte ,

So let's have a look at your sources. The first one from UN. Does it say Israel is the sole responsible party? Does it state that it is Israel or rather Hamas who puts palestine at the risk of genocide? It does not. The second one from aljazeera talks about legal concerns. So legal concerns=proof of genocide? That's what I mean when I say you are misrepresenting your sources. Your stuff doesn't hold up to basic fact checks. Shall I go on? And all of that is not even necessary when even there are plenty of legit ways to criticize Israel.

On top if that you fail to present any ideas on what Israel should be doing instead, how they should improve their ways or what alternatives options there might be. In a way I don't blame you, I also have no better ideas and that's probably because there are no better options.

Malte ,

He most probably changed his name and is part of some witness protection scheme or so. I doubt that Russia can go after someone like him unless he made a mistake that somehow gave his identitiy away. But he also should be well aware of the risks, so to me it seems unlikely.

Malte ,

The first time the russian government tried to murder Navalny with poison he was saved by Germany. I feel there is a special connection so it kinda makes sense for them to take the lead on new sanctions.

Malte ,

I hope it can reach full production capacity fast!

Malte ,

Sadly yes

How to support as EU citizen?

Hi everyone. I have been following the war for a long time but sadly haven't been able to do much for actual support. This week however I wrote my representatives about Taurus (following actionforukraine.org) and also wanted to look into other ways of supporting. Let me tell you that I'm a thirty-something from Germany, working...

Malte OP ,

Thanks for the links, I'll look into it!

Malte ,

Seems like quite some effort flying them back and forth for servicing. Surely US could do the work also in their european bases?

Malte ,

Oh Gott, wie kommt man denn auf solche Ideen? Russland geht es sicher nicht um Menschenrechte und Reisefreiheit sondern es ist die russische Art Vergeltung zu üben für Finnlands Nato Beitritt. Dafür Menschen zu instrumentalisieren die sowieso schon arm dran sind ist doch das allerletzte.

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