#Albo needs to take a step back & look at the total #clusterfuck his Prime Ministership has become.
2023 Labor National Conference: Labor’s position is that Israel and Palestine should exist “as two states within their own secure and recognised borders”.
@Alpha1Nine That resolution is a long way from being possible. It requires the two parties involved to agree on the motion before any 'recognition' is afforded to 'both' states. IMO, recognising a Palestinian state which does not exists does nothing to stop Netenyau's madness, nor does it afford any international rights to the Gaza Strip. At best it is grandstanding, at worst, it lessens the impact of any diplomatic pressure Australia might put on to Israel to do something about the two state proposal. I understand the anger. What I cannot understand is why the same anger isn't applied to the horn of Africa, Ukraine, the autonomous regions of the PRC, etc... #Palestine#payman#Labor#TwoStateSolution
"what territorial boundaries" @RaymondPierreL3
I wondered about that. It turns out to be irrelevant. A "state" is an organised political community. Territory is usual, but not necessary under all definitions.
There are indeed non-Zionist Israelis @RaymondPierreL3
There are even anti-Zionist Israelis. But the State of Israel is Zionist. The society of Israel is Zionist.
The Zionist invasion of Palestine began in the 19th century. Some of the documentation from the 1919 Paris conference is quite revealing. It seems they were pretty obnoxious from the beginning.
@RaymondPierreL3
There is no universally-agreed definition of "state" in this context. One of the few points on which all seem to agree is recognition.
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A state is a state because it's recognised as such by other states. Recursive, but there you have it. #AusPol #Payman #FatimaPayman #Palestine #Israel @Alpha1Nine
@RaymondPierreL3 "Palestine was created by the British"
The concept of Palestine has existed for more than a millennium. If it was "created", then that could be said to have been done by the Emperor Constantine in the fourth century CE (though he was building on history).
"...carved out by the jewish tribes through conquests as the Egyptian 'let them go'..."
There's no evidence of substantial numbers of Hebrew slaves in Egypt. Ever. No Passover. No Exodus (at least, not on the scale of the mythology). Probably no Moses.
@smitjo
"my recollection is that Israel has never accepted the proposed borders"
One of the conditions imposed by the UN was that Israel would declare it borders. That has never happened. (They probably intend to take total control from the river to the sea, then move on to "Greater Israel".) If we're going to obsess over borders, then Israel doesn't formally exist. @Alpha1Nine #AusPol #Payman #FatimaPayman #Palestine #Israel
@RaymondPierreL3
It seemed to me that we were discussing from different perspectives. Some of us were learning. Others, evidently not.
For the record, I don't believe that there's a viable a two-state solution. It's pretty clear that the Zionists are intent on being the master race in the region. While Israel exists, the chances of peace are slim to none. @smitjo@Alpha1Nine #AusPol #Payman #FatimaPayman #Palestine #Israel #discussion
@smitjo
The founding documents of Likud and Hamas both claim exclusive rights from the river to the sea (both parties have since moderated their language, but the intent is clear). Zionism also has a worrying history of aspiring to "Greater Israel". By some accounts, that stretches from the Euphrates to the Nile. @RaymondPierreL3 @Alpha1Nine #AusPol #Payman #FatimaPayman #Palestine #Israel #discussion #GreaterIsrael