Yes, we DO need to vote for Joe Biden. Sorry that you don't find the prospect of murdered American minorities to be important enough to justify [checks notes] the extremely arduous task of checking a box on a ballot.
It's funny, considering you're a constant presence on the "ACTUALLY YOU SHOULDN'T VOTE FOR BIDEN" threads. One might even be skeptical of such a claim. :)
Politicalmemes will be where the party is when Netanyahu’s genocide is complete.
Oh, of course, that's why popular opinion here is so pro-Israel. Silly me.
That's not what I meant, but I guess if you want to play obtuse to avoid the fact that US jets (ie jets owned, not 'manufactured' by the US) running sorties on Palestine would be a great help to the Israelis and their quest for genocide and an escalation of US involvement in this atrocity, it's your choice. If you would prefer to play dumb and assure everyone, once the dead are tallied up, that you were only PRETENDING to not understand the murderous consequences of your action and inaction, that's up to you.
Voting Biden in and making sure you're involved in the democratic party's next race for a nominee seems to be a better option then having Trump get back in power, no?
No, they're both the same and anyone who disputes this is clearly just a neolib. Minorities who fear a second Trump regime need to just Get Over It. /s
Explicitly not voting for Biden is my involvement in the democratic party's next primary (along with voting in that primary, obviously). I'm established as a known quantity who goes to the polls reliably and it is very easy for Democrats to get my vote generally.
I'll even vote for the "lesser of two evils". The only catch is I will vote against any politician who supports genocide and takes AIPAC money. In a general or a primary, doesn't really matter. I'll submit a blank ballot if nothing else.
Not too complicated, right? If democrats just don't field zionist candidates who support genocide, everyone wins. Easy peasy.
Explicitly not voting for Biden is my involvement in the democratic party’s next primary (along with voting in that primary, obviously)
Biden isn't going to be in the Democratic Party's next primary.
Not too complicated, right? If democrats just don’t field zionist candidates who support genocide, everyone wins. Easy peasy.
Except for all the minorities who will be killed or tormented under a Trump regime, and the massive amount of damage that a Trump regime will cause to non-minorities. They don't win. But you feel good about yourself for a little while, so fuck all those people, right? 😊
Black Women voters are among the groups where Biden support is dropping fastest compared to last election, but continue to speak over them to use 'minorities' as a talking point.
Black Women voters are among the groups where Biden support is dropping fastest compared to last election, but continue to speak over them to use ‘minorities’ as a talking point.
Would you like to tell me what the top issue of choice is for most Black voters?
I'll give you a hint - the foreign policy issue you're proposing a handover to fascism over doesn't even come close.
Continue to tell them whats best for them though, a winning strategy if I ever hear one lmfao. "THE ECONOMY IS FINE AND YOU ONLY HAVE ONE CHOICE WHY DO THEY KEEP RUINNING?" Also I'd like to know where you got the idea im handing the country over to anyone by telling you that Bidens losing the supporters you claim to care about. Can't wait until users like you disappear after the election.
Biden is representative of the Democratic establishment. He's the chosen one they forced through in the primary. It's not about him as an individual, it's the political regime he represents within the party. Biden, like Trump, is just a symptom.
It's not about Trump, it's about what Democrats are demanding I put my name to.
Won't do it. There's literally no combination of words or sounds you can make that will make me vote for a pro-genocide candidate.
Whether Trump wins or not depends entirely on how well Democrats can get the vote out, that's their responsibility. I offer my vote with that one simple condition, not hard to get.
You have a binary choice, Biden or Trump for this election.
What you do with your vote is your choice of course but if you help Trump and the GOP get back in power are you going to accept your responsibility in everything that it entails?
We have three choices; Biden, Trump, deliberate non-vote.
I won't be helping the GOP get into power because there is no scenario in which I would vote for them. Whether Biden can or cannot convince enough people to vote for him would be entirely on Biden himself. That's how democracy works; you convince people to vote for you and get into office -- He has the power to stop supporting genocide, ultimately I can't influence him to do that other than to communicate that I will withhold my vote. If I'm unwilling to follow through on that option then it's an empty threat.
I'm not sure why it's become so difficult for people to understand. You're trying to persuade the wrong person here. Write a letter to Biden and your representatives, they're the one in office not me. I'm just a voter who Biden seems confident he doesn't need.
I’m not trying to persuade you about anything, you’ve obviously made up your mind that helping Trump get back into power is a choice you’re willing to make to maintain your moral high ground.
I’m trying to let anyone else reading this conversation that there is a choice this election between Biden or Trump (I don’t think deliberate non-vote has a chance of becoming president) and the real work is pushing the DNC to have young, smart and progressive candidates in the next primary.
I'm not voting for Trump. I'm offering my vote to the Democrats for the most minimal cost. Literally willing to forego pretty much every political and moral principle I have except putting my name on a genocide.
Non-vote isn't just the only possible moral choice in this context, it's also the maximal way to vote if the goal is to change the party politics like you claim to want to.
Withholding votes is pushing the DNC to allow young, smart progressive candidates, it is the only way that ever has a chance of happening. This is because they will never ever allow a progressive candidate to win a primary if their corporate pro-genocide candidates can win simply by doing the old pied piper trick. As long as pro-genocide candidates are electorally viable, they'll continue to field them and they'll continue to win because that's who the party backs with funding and that's who they tell their media arm to boost. Biden getting re-elected reinforces that cycle, it does not put us closer to disrupting it.
The strategy you're insisting on has only resulted in democratic voters compromising on their principles more and more to the point where you're now here trying to convince people to vote for someone funding a genocide. That's how far from your purported goal your strategy has brought us.
there is a choice this election between Biden or Trump … and the real work is pushing the DNC to have young, smart and progressive candidates in the next primary.
Uh huh, just onnnnnne more corporate democrat and the slide towards fascism will start to reverse, right? Just one little genocide, it's no big deal just some brown kids getting killed, just put your name on it this one time and then we pinky promise we'll start being more progressive.
I know I know, neoliberals lost RvW through their utter negligence, but it'll work this time if we just let the DNC take one last AIPAC check, then they'll be satisfied and stop kneecapping progressive candidates. They totally won't do the exact same play next election cycle and get the exact same kind of empty right-wing suit to face off against whatever alt-right freak they help the GOP dredge up out of a bog somewhere.
They'd never do that after we gave them everything they wanted and when we flinch every time they play chicken with our democracy.
Right? This time will be different, just be complicit on this one genocide.
Roe vs Wade was a lot to do with Trump’s Supreme Court nominees overturning it.
Mitch had a lot to do with that too, delaying nominations and rushing others so they could have more of their people on it.
I understand you don’t want Biden to win but it’s starting to sound more and more like you just want Trump to win to tear down the system and you’re not worried about all the innocent people who will be hurt by that.
Biden has done a lot of good too, if you can open your eyes and look.
No. Dems had the opportunity to make RvW law under Obama. They simply refused and used their super majority to force everyone to buy private insurance instead. We lost RvW because of establishment democrats and this naive belief from neoliberal voters that Dems will reform themselves "one day" if we just keep voting for their establishment picks and pretending Millenials and GenZ don't exist. "Vote blue, no matter how beyond the pale the candidates behaviour and beliefs become because we will always make sure the other option is worse"
it’s starting to sound more and more like you just want Trump to win to tear down the system and you’re not worried about all the innocent people who will be hurt by that.
I am the people who will be hurt, I'm literally part of one of the first demographics the GOP will target. No one wants Trump to win but that fear for myself doesn't stop me from staying true on my own moral limits and remaining focused on applying real pressure to reform dem party politics, because that's literally the only viable path out of the situation Democrats have put us all in while they've been busy shoving corporate and Israeli cash up their asses.
We tried it your way for 40 years. It does not work. no amount of feeding the dem establishment will weaken them, only starving them will work. Yes, that is painful for all of us, but the other option is staying on the slow road to fascism.
The best someone can do when faced with two equally genocidal candidates is try to pressure the party that has the potential to produce non-genocidal candidates, and the only way to do that is through protest, boycott, striking and soliciting your representatives or, as a lost resort, witholding your vote to communicate clearly that pro-genocide candidates are unviable. Anything else is enabling.
You're not mitigating anything by voting for Biden, he literally just gave Israel a billion in military aid and will do so again as soon as an opportunity presents itself. The only thing more he could be doing is literally sending in American soldiers to help with the killing.
I'd rather mitigate the immediate potential of halting of all US aid to Gaza by the Trump admin- but obviously empty 'principles' are more important to you than starving Palestinians.
Motherfucker please, the us already decided to withhold how many billions of unrwa?
Trump might stop giving them more, but let’s not pretend Mr. Cut off palestinian aid, shut down every ceasefire except one halfass one, continually reject every Palestinian attempt at state.
WE HAVE ALREADY LOST GAZA!!!
Those people are toast either way, trump will do it fast and Biden will let Israel keep crossing Every Single Red Line.
At this point, there is no helping them, both candidates want them dead.
Fucking Biden actually probably wants the dead more than trump.
I don’t think trump actually cares one way or the other he just wants to stay out of jail, Biden actually wants them dead, they are causing him problems.
Edit: added everything after the last comma, missed it the first time.
there is a choice this election between Biden or Trump … and the real work is pushing the DNC to have young, smart and progressive candidates in the next primary.
No, I think you're confused, I said I won't support pro-genocide candidates.
The genocide in Gaza is running full steam, there's nothing more Trump can do that Biden isn't already doing right now. Biden, historically, is the one who has a worse track record on the issue, which is pretty sad to realize.
You make a vague assertion that Trump will be more supportive of the genocide in some way. What specifically is Trump going to do? Send another billion dollars in bombs to Israel? Go over there himself and choke a child to death?
If you genuinely think Democrats represent a greater potential to not full-steam support the genocide then you still need to actually take the action that will get them to potentially stop their support. Letting them give you the middle finger and then voting for them anyway is not going to be effective in changing the party politics.
I’ll even vote for the “lesser of two evils”. The only catch is I will vote against any politician who supports genocide and takes AIPAC money.
"I'll vote for the lesser of two evils except for this one important issue that I'll just let the greater evil prevail on so I can feel morally superior to the lesser evil."
I'm flexible on a lot of issues, genocide is non-negoiable for me though. There is no degree by which I will support it and no cause that makes it worthy. I can't be threatened, shamed or semantically maneuvered into supporting it. That's what you guys have got to work with here.
But again, it's very easy to not support genocide, and it's cheap! So it's not some impossible line in the sand. If Democrats want my vote that's literally all it takes at this point, stuff like functioning healthcare, bodily autonomy, fair wages, campaign finance reform etc. I've given up on ever realistically seeing that stuff, so corporate Dems are already getting a lot out of the deal here, but it's entirely on them to compromise on the genocide thing.
Well your taxes support genocide so the least you could do is vote to mitigate the damage you pay for. But I know feeling morally superior is more important than pragmatic decisions that actually spare lives.
I can’t be threatened, shamed or semantically maneuvered into supporting it.
You're literally supporting genocide by your acquiescence to a Trump regime, but I guess if there's MORE genocide it doesn't count, like a stack overflow. Thanks for sending American minorities to be murdered, we're real grateful to your moral purity.
This is the trolley problem. "Voting for Biden" is pulling the switch to divert the trolley onto the track which kills one person instead of five (although there may be disagreement on how many people are tied to each track).
I totally get the "I didn't fucking ask for this choice to be put in front of me, so I'm not playing at all" outlook, but the fact is that the choice is there, and doing nothing is a choice.
Oh, so now I AM in a position to criticize the candidates that represent me, AND do so, but it's... what, disqualified because I also defend them from the charge of being the MORE genocidal choice that will cause millions more deaths?
If you say "genocide is bad, we should stop defending it" and also "it's understandable that Biden has not stopped defending it", have you criticized him, or defended him? Is that a net-defend or a net-critique?
It's a "Know what you are realistically going to be able to extract in this situation considering the current opinions of the general electorate", but I guess being realistic comes second to condemning millions of minorities to death for the sake of feeling good about yourself.
I think actively denying what the electorate can see with their own eyes is what condemns minorities to their death, not condemning my government for assisting in genocide.
I think actively denying what the electorate can see with their own eyes is what condemns minorities to their death,
Okay, cool, then you do think that Israel's ongoing genocide for the last 20 years hasn't been recognized by the US electorate. Apparently, also according to you, that means you have a great deal of contempt for them.
He doesn't realize that US military funding of Israel has been paused many times - including by Biden - as a lever to try to force change. That funding is the leverage we have over Israel. Fully halting it eliminates that leverage, and then what?
Also, the GOP has put forward legislation to remove the ability of the president to pause those deliveries, which also eliminates that leverage in a worse way. Biden has said he would veto that bill, by the way.
I've mentioned this before, as you well know, but it deserves mentioning again here. The fact that you can criticize Biden and there's an outside chance he'll listen makes him the better candidate than the guy who listens to nobody on anything that's not about how to make him more money, with disregard to whether the money-making scheme is legal.
Edit: Let's also not forget that the guy who listens to nobody also uses literal WWII Nazi language at his presidential campaign rallies, kind of all the time - along with an ever-increasing litany of repugnant behaviors, any one of which would have immediately halted any other political campaign in its tracks. But let's not ever criticize that; it's all the Democrats' fault.
I've also said that the people who bark about this, only ever criticising Biden and Democrats, are either foreign propagandists or wholly taken by them. I stand by that statement.
He doesn’t realize that US military funding of Israel has been paused many times - including by Biden - as a lever to try to force change. That funding is the leverage we have over Israel. Fully halting it eliminates that leverage, and then what?
If only there was an international body charged with prosecuting international crimes, and if there was such a body, thank God it's Biden in the white house and not Trump, who would surely obstruct bringing justice and pressure to the Isreali leaders conducting the war crimes.
If only it was domestically illegal to send weapons to foreign nations who were found to be using them to commit war crimes, that way at least Israel would know our hands were tied if they keep committing them
If only there was an international coalition of nations that could sanction Israel for committing war crimes. I'm sure if there was we would certainly not obstruct justice being brought there
If only the US had a functional military, so they could use it as a last resort to put an end to a literal fucking genocide.
What a sad reality we live in.
I’ve also said that the people who bark about this, only ever criticising Biden and Democrats, are either foreign propagandists or wholly taken by them. I stand by that statement.
Do you think Trump would relent if I was yelling at him to stop the genocide Biden was supporting?
Do you think republicans would listen to moralistic appeals to stopping genocide?
Are there even any full-throated republicans on lemmy?
This 'why aren't you complaining about republicans?!' bullshit is a transparent deflection of responsibility from the people who are actively involved in the genocide. And I stand by that statement.
It was a shame he didn’t get more and it would be interesting to see if America would have voted in a self-described socialist after all the years spent poisoning that well.
She 100% did. I share your sentiment. He did amazing still. And honestly I think he's done better with the power he got in the Senate after running. Than he ever would have been able to do in the office of the president with both Democrats and Republicans against him.
