Allero ,

Patriotism also sucks, because it implements a bias that can then be exploited, and brings very little to the table.

State-level patriotism also makes you complicit in the division of people by countries and nations, as opposed to classes and other valid groups of people.

And there is no valid reason to have some special relation to your country. It is natural to feel ties with the place you were born or the place you spent a lot of time in, this is human psychology, but your country is nothing but a piece of land that was marked by somebody as belonging to some virtual entity.

We should ditch state-level patriotism as a concept and treat local-level patriotism as a natural bias. We should strive to help people of all places and origins, and come together as one.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

You see my kind of loyalty was loyalty to one’s country, not to its institutions or its office-holders. The country is the real thing, the substantial thing, the eternal thing; it is the thing to watch over, and care for, and be loyal to; institutions are extraneous, they are its mere clothing, and clothing can wear out, become ragged, cease to be comfortable, cease to protect the body from winter, disease, and death. To be loyal to rags, to shout for rags, to worship rags, to die for rags—that is a loyalty of unreason, it is pure animal; it belongs to monarchy, was invented by monarchy; let monarchy keep it. I was from Connecticut, whose Constitution declares “that all political power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority and instituted for their benefit; and that they have at all times an undeniable and indefeasible right to alter their form of government in such a manner as they may think expedient.”

Under that gospel, the citizen who thinks he sees that the commonwealth’s political clothes are worn out, and yet holds his peace and does not agitate for a new suit, is disloyal; he is a traitor. That he may be the only one who thinks he sees this decay, does not excuse him; it is his duty to agitate anyway, and it is the duty of the others to vote him down if they do not see the matter as he does.

  • Mark Twain, "A Connecticut Yankee In King Arthur's Court"
UnrepententProcrastinator ,

Conservative's patriotism is mostly virtue signaling in my experience.

unexposedhazard ,

Patriotism and Nationalism are basically the same thing. The distinction is nonsensical, especially in this context.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

good ol' Lemmy's lack of nuance.

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

Also, if you vote, you are ethnically tied to, and guilty of, every decision and moral misstep of that politician until the end of time.

Semjaza ,

You'll have to explain, since in the comic the main premise of both Nationalism and Patriotism is that "this house is mine ergo it is the best".

(Also historically the distinction would be that Nationalism is about establishing an ethno-state, while Patriotism is the basically-unconditional loving of your state, be it ethno or otherwise.)

Bilbo_Haggins ,

I take issue with the first panel.

To me, patriotism is "I'm going to work on my house because I love the people who live in it and I want them all to have the best house."

If you start from the assumption that your country is the "best" that's nationalism and straying too close to the roots of xenophobia.

DarkCloud ,

The liberal fear of these concepts and fear of showing these beliefs is part of why establishment liberals have become such bad orators and such weak and unconvincing political parties.

These concepts have to be harnessed, that's just the nature of drawing in the middle of politics.

Politics is a luxury to focus on, there are huge swaths of work a day people who don't and can't focus on it. They need certain messages as short hand for doing the "right thing" - that's just how politics is, not everyone can afford to live with the burden of political awareness, it's not necessary healthy.

You have to give the devil it's dues, and do so willingly and happily. That's just how political campaigns are under this system.

Shardikprime ,

Ironic if P had a bit more of N he wouldn't be absorbed that easy

Ptsf ,

Can we not do politics? I generally like the comics sub, but my exposure to politics on lemmy, social media, wherever is at such all time peak nonsensical levels that I just block all politic related subs, and would like this not to be one of them.

ShinkanTrain ,

Also patriotism: This house sucks, and it's because of these fucking immigrants

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works avatar

Nah.

Patriots would be there waving a giant flag saying we’re the best house ever, despite not actually being involved in building the house or having anything to do with the state of it outside of living in it.

Patriotism and nationalism has zero place in society.

dragontamer ,

We need to build a shared culture so that we can work together.

My house will become the best house should be a message we all can get around. Otherwise, why should I work with you to build society?

If you don't like shared work or shared culture to begin with, it's a bit problematic in that your own political ideologies are destined to die. At the very minimum, your ideology must be self sustaining.

zloubida ,
@zloubida@lemmy.world avatar

Why this house should be the best? Why make it a competition? Who cares about the house?

We care about the people living in the house. And about the people living in other houses too.

Icalasari ,

The house in this case is a metaphor for the politicians, laws, community, etc.

You want people to take pride and improve all that. You want friendly competition there. And part of it would be, "We are the best house because we help other houses improve"

It's a stepping stone to, "We are a commune" ie "We all share this world and should take pride and improve it for everybody" - It's easier to take pride in and improve your own home first so you get to the point of, "Others should get to share in this and we have so much, let's help others make their homes as great as ours"

zloubida ,
@zloubida@lemmy.world avatar

I may be dumb, but for me the metaphor is for the nation. Or the mention of patriotism against nationalism makes no sense.

And I don't care about nations. They're a tool used to divide people.

Yes it's easier to improve my country than others'. But I don't need pride for that.

dragontamer ,

Good luck building up a coalition of people who will cooperate with you.

And worse: good luck politically defeating those who are smart enough to use basic psychology to coordinate the masses. Its not evil to do so, its just practicality. We know how people act and how they think. Its not so hard to then use psychology and sociology to build up our own coalitions.

As Terry Pratchett wrote in The Hogfather : We tell little likes like Santa Clause because we're training children to believe in the big lies like Truth and Justice. And only when we all believe in that stuff can it possibly work. "We're the best country in the world" is part of that, its a little lie that helps smooth over problems and helps us work together. And in my experience, its effective at it.

yetAnotherUser ,

Yup. The main difference between a patriot and a nationalist - or fascist - is a few years and an opportunity.

dragontamer ,

Last time I checked, we were able to deploy the Office of Censorship to censor US Postal Mail. Conscript Disney and Loony Tunes to build up a massive database of wartime propaganda. Use it to influence the entirety of the US Civilians. Use it to drum up support for War Bonds to help expand the US Debt to pay for the war, raise taxes to 90% on the highest end and build a better country while defeating both Fascism and Communism.

We, as a country, decided that desperate times called for desperate measures. And not only that, we also got rid of these dangerous emergency powers (of explicit Censorship / War Information / Propaganda) before we corrupted our society into an irreversible state.

And therein lies the problem with people who just yell "fascism" whenever they disagree with someone. Yall obviously don't know the history of this country.

GregorGizeh ,

Why do you assume op is an american? Not everything is about, or from, or related to, or on reference to, your failed state lol

dragontamer ,

If you're not American then we don't have any shared political system for which we can improve America. And therefore we have no serious system to help each other out.

None of this works unless we're working to build the same thing or same concept.

GregorGizeh ,

Again, why are you even talking about america? I certainly am not, and the op is just a generalized patriotism vs nationalism comic. The above commenter you replied to originally makes no indication they are referring to america either.

I get it, your system failing is a hot topic for you, but outside your bubble nobody knows or really cares about the inner workings of your government, beyond which senile capitalist you eventually elect to change nothing for the better.

dragontamer ,

Again, why are you even talking about america?

Because this is a topic about Patriotism and who is actually going to help my country. And building a culture that encourages people to help my country.

but outside your bubble

I'm happy with "Americans" being my bubble. I honestly don't need to care about others, and as you point out there's plenty enough to worry about if we keep it to Americans alone.

SMBC-comics is obviously itself an American comic strip as well (A PH.D who lives in USA in any case), so you're coming over here to talk about an American comic, talking about American issues that's bringing up American political discussion and... like shitting on it? Okay, no one asked you to come over.

Now my question to you is: what are you doing in this topic? Are you seriously trying to discourage me from improving the country where I live? Or are you trying to say your country is better or something? I don't even know what your perspective is.

GregorGizeh ,

I know you skimp on your education system, but do you not understand my words? Patriotism doesnt automatically mean america. This isnt about who or what or how your country can avoid going full masks off fascism, this is a semi serious comparison between nationalism and patriotism in a comic format.

And if you want to talk to Americans about american problems I suggest a less international community dedicated to such musings, instead of self centeredly derailing a random, at best tangentially related comment section.

creditCrazy ,
@creditCrazy@lemmy.world avatar

Ok so let's entertain the opposite of patriotism and talk about self distane what is going to drive you to fix the crumbling rotting foundation or leaky roof because who cares if this crummy house rots and collapses on me if you don't care about your county then you won't have the drive to maintain it sure some might but those people who don't need motivation to do things are rare and far between if the world is hopeless then what hope is there of fixing it

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works avatar

Is pride the only reason you take care of your health?

Because the motivation to not live in a shit place should be that you wouldn’t want to be living in a shit place, not because you think it’s great.

candybrie ,

People with no or low self-worth are way more likely to neglect their health than those with high self-worth. Pride is a huge motivator for taking care of your health.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC194072/

The levels of obesity and diabetes among the Pima Indians of Arizona have long been recognised to be high. A small study tested the efficacy of lifestyle interventions. Two groups were identified. The Pima action group had a familiar mix of interventions on nutrition and physical activity. The Pima pride group looked remarkably like a control group for a health education trial—they received printed leaflets about activity and nutrition—but in addition they had regular discussions with local leaders on Pima culture and history. At the end of 12 months, much was going in the wrong direction for the action group, but the pride group had either less deterioration of risk factors or improvements. Compared with the action group the pride group looked favourable on weight, waist circumference, and blood glucose and insulin levels two hours after a glucose load.3 A tentative conclusion was that increasing pride in their identity had a more favourable impact on health behaviours and risk than focusing on how to change diet and exercise.

People often don't take care of things they aren't proud of. It doesn't matter if it's clearly in their best interest to.

DarkCloud ,

Patriotism and nationalism has zero place in society.

That's not true, Bernie Sanders campaign had a wonderfully wholesome and inclusive version of patriotism which they used to great effect:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nwRiuh1Cug

...and he also talks about his nationalism when deriding the Koch brothers:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0

So like most things it depends on when AND HOW they're used.

dpkonofa ,

Patriotism and nationalism has zero place in society.

Not true. Patriotism is wanting and seeking the best for your country. Because our society relies on those physical divides, patriotism would actually improve society. Nationalism is deciding that whatever your country is doing already is the best simply by virtue of self-identification. There is no desire for improvement outside of an individual perception so it, functionally, can never offer any improvement for society.

One is potentially beneficial. The other is cancerous.

dogsoahC ,

One is cancerous, the other is a benign tumor (for now).

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