RememberUsAlways ,
@RememberUsAlways@newsie.social avatar

After 18 years of control of , is it impossible to suggest the only people that remain living in were families or infrastructure supporting ?

Hamas declared on , October 7th 2023 from the streets of Gaza.

Hamas took 200 + from around the world on October 7th 2023.

Hamas dug 480 Km of under Gaza.

Hamas used to support terrorism.

Hamas will not accept the .

Hamas has no future.
@palestine
@israel

Jon_Kramer ,
@Jon_Kramer@mastodon.social avatar

@RememberUsAlways @palestine @israel I agree that it is impossible to suggest that only Hamas supporters live in Gaza. Well, not impossible... people can say it. But the odds that this is reality are amazingly low. Furthermore, even if true, it would be irrelevant. You don't get to kill people for their beliefs.

RememberUsAlways OP ,
@RememberUsAlways@newsie.social avatar

@Jon_Kramer @palestine @israel

Where is your data on the odds? Can you be more specific in this assumption?

Seems quite reasonable to suggest the building of 480 KM of tunnels everywhere in Gaza would be obvious. Seems reasonable to suggest that after 18 years of Hamas control, the opposition would be dead or moved to nations like Jordan.

I think you are assuming everyone is innocent in Gaza. Clearly impossible.

Jon_Kramer ,
@Jon_Kramer@mastodon.social avatar

@RememberUsAlways @palestine @israel you seem to be proposing that Hamas, as a political group, is so attractive to people who experience its influence that the majority of people fall under its spell and support them?

That doesn't seem a bit far-fetched to you?

What possible attraction do you think they have?

As for kms of tunnels... what does that imply? My city has them... yours does too. Utilities, trains, roads, sewers... so what?

RememberUsAlways OP ,
@RememberUsAlways@newsie.social avatar

@Jon_Kramer @palestine @israel

Fear. Not "attractive". Fear is why terrorists take hostages.

Jon_Kramer ,
@Jon_Kramer@mastodon.social avatar

@RememberUsAlways @palestine @israel well, "fear" is FAR different than "support". People might fear Hamas. People seem prone to fear things.

I highly doubt fear is cause for execution.

RememberUsAlways OP ,
@RememberUsAlways@newsie.social avatar

@Jon_Kramer @palestine @israel

Fear is the greatest motive for evil. Any population of people who are held hostage for years, will eventually do anything to survive.

Jon_Kramer ,
@Jon_Kramer@mastodon.social avatar

@RememberUsAlways @palestine @israel so, kill the fearful??

RememberUsAlways OP ,
@RememberUsAlways@newsie.social avatar

@Jon_Kramer @palestine @israel

No. We all deserve the light of the sun.

However, the fearful act as shields for Hamas. If they don't, Hamas has no regard for the civilians in Palestine. Palestinian's support Hamas out of fear.

Hamas has failed to keep Palestinians safe. This is the responsibility of every nation on Earth.

Jon_Kramer ,
@Jon_Kramer@mastodon.social avatar

@RememberUsAlways @palestine @israel I highly doubt you will find many people anywhere on earth that disagree with the basic concept of "Hamas bad". I bet even the Israeli government officials that funded Hamas in the 1980s regret their choices.

That seems axiomatic. But, given that reality, what do you think this says about the other 2.2 million people living in Gaza?

Jon_Kramer ,
@Jon_Kramer@mastodon.social avatar

@RememberUsAlways @palestine @israel I also wonder... who has Hamas failed to keep Palestinians safe from? Where is the threat to Palestinians? What form of safety would work?

RememberUsAlways OP ,
@RememberUsAlways@newsie.social avatar

@Jon_Kramer @palestine @israel

Because of the position has on the , I would argue all Palestinians are used as terrorist shields to promote the obstruction.

Until that changes, Israel will pound Gaza until they release all the Hostages then recognize Israel as a Nation. Once this is achieved as part of the peace process, there will be hope for Palestine again.

Until Hamas is dismantled or surrenders, the war will continue and more civilians killed.

War is brutal.

Jon_Kramer ,
@Jon_Kramer@mastodon.social avatar

@RememberUsAlways @palestine @israel Killing civilians is not war. There is another term for that...

jonburr ,
@jonburr@mastodon.social avatar

@Jon_Kramer @RememberUsAlways @palestine @israel

... and it's not "Defence"

RememberUsAlways OP ,
@RememberUsAlways@newsie.social avatar

@Jon_Kramer @palestine @israel

Killing civilians as part of a war objective is acceptable as long as the nations involved declared war, or Jihad, on eachother.

International law is also brutal.

Jon_Kramer ,
@Jon_Kramer@mastodon.social avatar

@RememberUsAlways @palestine @israel and there we have a fundamental disagreement. Killing civilians is NOT acceptable. What Hamas did was an abomination. What the IDF is doing is an abomination. What Pol Pot did was an abomination. The drone bombing by Obama, the Pinochet government, Haiti, Chad, Somalia, Stalin, Mao... all abominations.

KeesD92 ,
@KeesD92@mastodon.social avatar

@Jon_Kramer @RememberUsAlways @palestine @israel but only one genocide🤣😂😂🤣🤣

RememberUsAlways OP ,
@RememberUsAlways@newsie.social avatar

@Jon_Kramer

All horrible. I hear all the lemintation going back 4000 years in my darkest dreams, I promise you.

Yet we struggle to achieve peace though our discussion of law and borders that I thank you for and appreciate your perspective.

@palestine @israel

jonburr ,
@jonburr@mastodon.social avatar

@RememberUsAlways @Jon_Kramer @palestine @israel

You're rather naive

Israeli ministers join gathering calling for resettlement of Gaza
The far-right conference urges the government to set up new Jewish settlements in Gaza and the occupied West Bank.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/29/israeli-ministers-join-gathering-calling-for-rebuilding-settlements-in-gaza

RememberUsAlways OP ,
@RememberUsAlways@newsie.social avatar

@jonburr @Jon_Kramer @palestine @israel

The real estate border dispute is part of the war declaration from Palestinians and Israelis.
Both governments declared war on eachother over land disputes and human rights.

The act of declaration gives broad immunity to both nations to achieve their war targets.

As a world, we've debated these facts over the years but nothing has changed the broad scope of powers Nations have over civilians in war declaration.

skippy442 ,
@skippy442@mastodon.social avatar

@RememberUsAlways @jonburr @Jon_Kramer @palestine @israel
in any 'nations' dust ups, civilians are mere cannon fodder and collateral damage. cue the kid with the body counter ...

RememberUsAlways OP ,
@RememberUsAlways@newsie.social avatar

@skippy442

You have it my friend.

Now I'll say something that is brutal and true

If you've never served in the military, you might not be aware of your civilian rights during war.

Just saying. It's worth checking.
@jonburr @Jon_Kramer @palestine @israel

Jon_Kramer ,
@Jon_Kramer@mastodon.social avatar

@RememberUsAlways @palestine @israel I do NOT assume "everyone is innocent" in any geographic area. Not even Antarctica.

andrew ,
@andrew@mastodon.green avatar

@RememberUsAlways @Jon_Kramer @palestine @israel Here is some polling on Hamas in Gaza just before 7 October 2023... https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas

Most people in Gaza do not like Hamas.

From the article:

In an eight-point decline since 2021, just 26 percent said the government was very (three percent) or largely (23 percent) responsive to the needs of the people. When asked what is the most effective way for ordinary people to influence the government, a plurality said “nothing is effective.”

RememberUsAlways OP ,
@RememberUsAlways@newsie.social avatar

@andrew

Yet another reason for the October 7th attack IMO.

@Jon_Kramer @palestine @israel

Jon_Kramer ,
@Jon_Kramer@mastodon.social avatar

@RememberUsAlways @andrew @palestine @israel agreed, but not a good reason for the Israeli RESPONSE to Oct 7th.

RememberUsAlways OP ,
@RememberUsAlways@newsie.social avatar

@Jon_Kramer

The Israeli response was to go to their leaders and declare war and mobilize their fighters.

Two nations. Both declared war

In many nations around the world, war declaration gives governments immense power to achieve war objectives. Civilian casualties are reported and terrible, yet also considered acceptable losses to achieve war objectives.

Israel is covered by international law because the people of Israel declared a response.

Brutal war.

@andrew @palestine @israel

Jon_Kramer ,
@Jon_Kramer@mastodon.social avatar

@RememberUsAlways @andrew @palestine @israel by that logic, the war started in 1948, and what Hamas did was acceptable.

I reject this.

RememberUsAlways OP ,
@RememberUsAlways@newsie.social avatar

@Jon_Kramer

By that logic, the war started at 628 AD.

Why stop at 70 years ago?

@andrew @palestine @israel

Jon_Kramer ,
@Jon_Kramer@mastodon.social avatar

@RememberUsAlways @andrew @palestine @israel because 75 years ago, the region was at peace, at least when you consider the fall of the ottoman empire and the 2 world wars that followed. There was a fundamental shift in the dynamics that happened 70 years ago.

RememberUsAlways OP ,
@RememberUsAlways@newsie.social avatar

@Jon_Kramer

Not a century has been recorded that Jerusalem has NOT been under siege.

Let's just be honest.

@andrew @palestine @israel

Jon_Kramer ,
@Jon_Kramer@mastodon.social avatar

@RememberUsAlways @andrew @palestine @israel the same can be said for any European city. There are reasons for all those city walls. Hell, even American cities had walls... NYC had one. Torn down, and renamed Wall Street.

RememberUsAlways OP ,
@RememberUsAlways@newsie.social avatar

@Jon_Kramer

Let's not let the goal posts take flight.

Cheers m8. And thank you.
@andrew @palestine @israel

jonburr ,
@jonburr@mastodon.social avatar

@Jon_Kramer @RememberUsAlways @palestine @israel

Unless you're the Israeli government.

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