MummifiedClient5000 ,

But Biden is so ^slightly^ old^er^ ^than^ ^trump^.

Snowclone ,

He's raspy sometimes.....

TechNerdWizard42 ,

Yup. And the world had much rejoicing.

RubberElectrons ,
@RubberElectrons@lemmy.world avatar

Fool, what replaces it has just as much technical power as America, but even less concerns of morality.

At least, for a while.

Rapidcreek ,

Big Gretch summed it up this morning as "America Fails". Pretty much the same thing.

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

Better way to put it, because America wouldn't end. America as we know it would.

GladiusB ,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

All empires have shifts in power. It wouldn't surprise me. But historically it's not unheard of. I would prefer preventing that, but I am just one person.

Corvidae ,

I disagree with Snyder. The crowing of the president as king via Extreme Court's immunity decision was the end. Biden is too good to take advantage, but others besides Trump will.

FunderPants ,

We can say who the others are. Republicans.

InternetUser2012 ,

Republikkklowns

TheReturnOfPEB , (edited )

sum up the GOP's response to that: "We Know"

Sanctus ,
@Sanctus@lemmy.world avatar

I really feel like his coup attempt should at the fucken least bar him from running. This race really shouldnt be happening right now and we all know it. I fucken hate this place. He should have had harsh consequences, not whatever the fuck we're looking at now.

ghostdoggtv ,

Whatever is tolerating his candidacy it's not the same constitutional republic anymore. Congress has a duty to call a 14a3 vote and Congress is all taking dark money not to do their salaried jobs.

Delusional ,

Yeah we used to straight up kill traitors to the nation instead of propping them up and trying to get them elected a second time like republicans are doing.

Add to that the fact that he is a child rapist and a conman fraudster who doesn't even have the intelligence of a fourth grader.

I always used to think republicans are dumb but Jesus fucking Christ they're really off the rails. All republicans now are either idiots that have been brainwashed by conservative propaganda or straight up evil villains. There isn't a single positive reason to support trump.

Snowclone ,

Well meeting people in private to swap dry ice bomb recipes isn't going to solve this problem... unless....

leadore ,
@leadore@lemmy.world avatar

In the past, the coup attempt would have barred him from running again because when he was impeached after it, the Senate would have unanimously convicted him which would have disqualified him. But since the entire republican party is complicit, they acquitted him instead, which allowed him to run again.

The entire republican party and 2/3 of the Supreme Court are completely on board with project 2025 establishing an authoritarian christian dominionist regime, which means the normal government checks and balances have already been corrupted and neutralized.

We the voters are the only remaining barrier that can stop it, the only way to do that is keep the Democratic party in power. We did it in 2020, partly in 2022 (we lost the House), we have to do it again now in 2024, and we'll have to keep doing it every election until they are finally destroyed as a viable party. We've been barely hanging on with the thinnest of margins.

They can keep trying again and again--we can only fail once (like we did in 2016). One more failure and they win for good because they'll implement Project 2025 and it's over.

Sanctus ,
@Sanctus@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah I'm not doing that. Fuck eternal vigilance. If the Republicans dont stop they should be dissolved as a party. If I have to spend every election like this, I will instead advocate for eliminating the domestic terrorists. We deserve real choices with real candidates that really care about the American people. This is not it in the slightest. I've only ever gotten to vote against this shit stain. I want real choices. And I'll fucken carve them out of my state, my country, if I have to and I won't be alone. In reality I'll probably be arrested after my first Molotov but I dont see the FBI acting which means they're compromised too.

leadore ,
@leadore@lemmy.world avatar

I understand the feeling, but the problem is, keeping a democracy is eternal vigilance and always has been. Things have gotten to this point because we stopped being vigilant around 1980.
Yes Republicans should be dissolved as a party but who's going to do that? Yes under a trump regime you and every protestor will be arrested -- and you'll stay arrested. If trump gets in, it will come to what to say but you'll have zero power to do anything about it under a brutally repressive maga regime.
Better to take power the only viable way, which is to replace one of the two existing parties. Take over the democratic party just like the magas took over the republican party. It can be done but we have to keep the fascists from taking control first.

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

We weren't vigilant.

Clinicallydepressedpoochie ,

Having voted for other president's, you're not missing out on much. The most meaningful vote I've ever considered was when I primaried for bernie.

Ragnarok314159 ,

I think back to what a different timeline we would have is Howard Dean would not have done his scream. The guy was leading in so many polls and had alot of charisma, and all he did was do an enthusiastic “aasggghhhhh!”

The press destroyed him for it. It was absolutely ridiculous. And now we have a rapist draft dodger who sells classified information to our enemies.

mozz OP Admin ,
mozz avatar

If not that, it would have been something else. It’s just like picking on the debate and amplifying it times 25 and playing it every single day at the top of every hour. You’re gonna be able to find something and pretend it’s a big deal.

Gore invented the internet. Kerry was stiff and unlikeable. Bush, I could have a beer with. And then, just like anything else when you practice at it, they started to get really good at it. They could just make up any bullshit they wanted and boom! That was the end of someone’s campaign. The Dean Scream was probably the peak of its application. He was talking about taxing the rich? Fuck you, out you go. We’ll just wait for something we can amplify by 25. (And somehow, the Democrats get all the blame when one of these corporate trash candidates wins the nomination as a result. All those Dean people were Democrats, too.)

They got used to being king makers, and pretty much from 1992 to 2016, they were. If someone was corporate friendly like Clinton or Obama, they’d let them pass; and if anyone tried to buck the system, we’re gonna destroy your reputation like a bunch of mean high school girls, and there’s nothing you can do about it.

With Bernie, they learned they had lost their power, and so like any capable professionals they readjusted, and kept the renewed arsenal tucked away for future use.

Passerby6497 ,

Hell, what would have happened if Roger stone had been put underground after Reagan and was never around for Brooks Brothers Riot or all his fuckery with trump? That piece of shit has caused so much trouble.

Rivalarrival ,

We the voters are the only remaining barrier that can stop it,

Trump himself thinks there is a second option for dealing with a problematic presidential candidate.

goferking0 ,

I can't believe he didn't even get charged or investigated immediately. Another win for garland

Ragnarok314159 ,

Garland’s need to have the entire case in perfect alignment has screwed over this whole thing. It took him so long to deal with the OKC bombing case. He did a great job, but holy shit it took way too long.

SocialMediaSettler ,

The Rosenbergs were executed for treason. A former President should be treated no differently considering all the shit Trump has done since Jan. 6.

InternetUser2012 ,

He should literally HANG for it, along with everyone else that assisted in it.

GladiusB ,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

Life isn't fair. It's even less fair when you are poor or ugly.

fine_sandy_bottom ,

The reason he is allowed to run is because the voting public is entrusted with the power to choose whether or not to elect an authoritarian dictator. Bizarrely, it turns out that was a huge mistake.

Snowclone ,

If people aren't willing to go to pitchforks and torches nothings going to happen.

takeda ,

I highly recommend Timothy Snyder's book: "On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons From the Twentieth Century"

It is quite short and everyone should read it. If you can't get the book, he reads it on his YouTube channel.

Neato ,
@Neato@ttrpg.network avatar

He said he wanted to be a Dictator on Day 1. How many dictators have you ever heard of that gave up power? The American Experiment (executive leaders peacefully giving up power) was such a unique thing because it's so unheard of. Also fitting that Trump ended that tradition on Jan 06.

If Trump or any Republican gets elected again, expect the end of our democracy and the start of the fascist dictatorship. I wish I could convey how absolutely literal I'm being.

Muehe ,

How many dictators have you ever heard of that gave up power?

I get what you are saying and agree, but it is kind of noteworthy that basically every dictator before Caesar did that. Famously there was some retired consul or something in the early republic who was granted the dictatorship, saved Rome from seemingly assured destruction in combat, and then immediately retired back to his farm. Always forget the name... But even people like Sulla, who used his dictatorship to wage a civil war and is to my knowledge the first Roman general to march troops into Rome, eventually resigned their dictatorship. It was originally never intended to be a permanent position, which is why Caesar claiming it for life was such a turn of an era.

I guess what I'm saying overall is Trump might, even if elected to a second term, still turn out to be the American Sulla instead of the American Caesar if you catch my drift.

Disclaimer: Non-American here. Dictatorship bad. All of this is bad.

mozz OP Admin ,
mozz avatar

Cincinnatus. That was the hero one-battle dictator who went back to his farm after.

I don’t know the history well enough to know how common it was or how real the story is to the way things played out. But I always sort of suspected that the Cincinnatus story was played up so much that we still know it thousands of years later, because of later Roman dictators who really wanted to plant it in the public imagination that benevolent dictators were real, and a totally excellent idea

Muehe ,

Cincinnatus.

Yes, thank you!

Yeah I guess it is quite possible, likely even, that his story was embellished in history, and it was certainly abused later as you say. But to my layperson's knowledge at least, every instance of historically recorded dictatorship before Caesar was relinquished willingly. I also think it quite possible that for a long time there was enough social pressure around such an office to keep it temporary, especially if it was indeed mainly directed against external threats like invasions.

My interpretation is that Sulla set a bad precedent for abuse of the office in domestic politics, Caesar used that precedent to try and kill the (senatorial) republic, and Augustus dealt the finishing blow.

But all of this is an etymological tangent in answer to a rhetorical question anyway. With the drift in meaning Trump basically said he wants to be king, and he might still get his second opportunity to be become Caesar.

Impassionata ,

you should shut the fuck up with your 'well actually' de facto dictator apologia

Rome didn't have that many 'dictators' give up power

the vast majority of societies with authoritarian dictators are dysfunctional

again: shut the fuck up.

mozz OP Admin ,
mozz avatar

Who hurt you

Who

hurt

you

Impassionata ,

son

there is a fascist movement

this is an emergency

I will hurt who I will hurt.

Soulg ,

"Hey this historical fact is both relevant and interesting"

"STOP APOLOGIZING FOR THE BAD MEN"

Impassionata ,

It is idiocy and I am not obliged to respect it as anything but idiocy.

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

You sound so mad, and all this projection about being an idiot isn't the healthy outlet for that self-doubt you may think it is.

Go outside sometime, feel the sun, touch the grass.

It's nice out there, buddy 😎

Impassionata ,

These are not problems I have. I do have the problem of pseudofascist apologia being literally everywhere. You emitted trash nonsense. We already know what Trump is. Shut the fuck up.

Muehe ,

Wow, ok. User name does not check out.

Jokes aside though I feel attacked and my defence mechanism is to braindump, so consider what is to follow to be on you.

you should shut the fuck up with your ‘well actually’ de facto dictator apologia

As I was trying to make clear with the implicit disclaimer at the beginning of my comment and the explicit disclaimer at the end of my comment, that was not my intention. What I was trying to do was expand on the historical context as @Soulg already pointed out (thanks btw). I am well aware that the term dictator has lost its connotation of "temporary office" long ago, and it is today used pretty much in the sense of absolute monarchy.

Rome didn’t have that many ‘dictators’ give up power

The GP asked "how many do you know", and essentially I replied "at least two but pretty sure it's more" to that.

But ok, you posit I test. Here is my counterargument. With knowing Wikipedias love for lists and a search you land here: List of Roman dictators.

List starts 501 BCE, ends 44 BCE, with Julius Caesar by the way. I would eyeball its length at ~80-100 entries. That would amount to a dictatorship once every five years roughly.

The article helpfully explains a few Latin terms it uses, among them "abdicavit – abdicated, or resigned". Ctrl+F says 7 occurrences, minus the one explaining it that are 6 mentions of the term, so my new guesstimate would be there are at least 6 dictators (in ancient Rome) who relinquished their office willingly. And I would bet you could get that number higher if you dig into the details, and start looking at term limits and stuff.

So all I'm saying is essentially the dictatorship was an office that was regularly employed for nearly 500 years by an ancient state, and was then abused to bring about the destruction of its system of government. Remind you of anything? Like the presidency? Trump?

the vast majority of societies with authoritarian dictators are dysfunctional

Like those that exist right now? Not only the vast majority, all of them are dysfunctional and I never doubted that. Seriously you are preaching to the choir here. I was literally at court today because a number on a piece of paper was too low, and I couldn't pay to get a newer piece of paper. Luckily the case was dismissed, so I'm pretty fond of the rule of law and separation of powers at the moment, but also equally aware of the monopoly on violence the state claims for itself and how fragile that makes it.

I sense that you are angry, and most likely afraid, and I empathise with that. And due to that level of distress I would assume you are from the US. I'm not sure what to tell you except trying to resist the slide into dictatorship the best you can. Caesar was assassinated, and Hitler only narrowly escaped assassination several times is all I'm saying.

again: shut the fuck up.

Yeah, no, you little dictator. :P

Impassionata ,

I guess what I’m saying overall is Trump might, even if elected to a second term, still turn out to be the American Sulla instead of the American Caesar if you catch my drift.

This is stupid. You are an idiot. Shut the fuck up.

Muehe ,

I'm not quite sure what exactly you are taking offence from in that statement but feel free to enlighten me. In my defence I tried to indicate that it is a rough metaphor.

P.S. to rephrase, it seems you did not in fact catch my drift.

Impassionata ,

If Trump is elected to a second term it will be a disaster and there is no ambiguity as to the nature of Trump for he has already declared civil war against the will of the American people. You are an idiot.

Muehe ,

If Trump is elected to a second term it will be a disaster and there is no ambiguity as to the nature of Trump for he has already declared civil war against the will of the American people.

And please show me where the fuck I ever doubted that. Do you not know who Sulla was? Did you not read me saying he fought a civil war and was the first general to march on Rome? Like right above the section you quoted out of context?

What I said is Trump might not turn out to be the one to kill the republic but the one to irreparably damage it instead. Think for example him getting elected to a second term and then dying a month into it without achieving much of his dictatorial agenda.

You are an idiot.

That I am, given that I am still arguing with you.

Impassionata ,

You're an idiot because you think that Trump would ever resign like Sulla did.

Muehe ,

Again, not what I said. To be frank, the amount of misinterpretation you show is starting to seem utterly deliberate.

mozz OP Admin ,
mozz avatar

Sometimes there is a reason for that and often better not to spend the time

In my experience, it doesn’t take more than like 1-2 clearly aboveboard and good faith messages for even someone who’s pretty disagreeable to get on the same communication page. If it’s like 10 messages of just discoherent hostility then the usefulness of the conversation may be at its end

Muehe ,

Yeah I'm probably giving more benefit of the doubt than I should here, but I prefer to err on the side of caution in matters like this. I'm still not entirely convinced that this user is a troll, because if I were facing the prospect of an openly fascist dictatorship I would be in emotional distress as well. So I'm still doubting, however I have to say my patience is beginning to wear rather thin.

Impassionata ,

idk man you said we didn't know if Trump was going to be like Sulla and give up his power and that's a stupid fucking thing to say.

Muehe ,

I said Sulla gave up his dictatorship in response to a rhetorical question I took the liberty of answering.

In an effort of tying that aside back to the topic of the thread I then tried to state that it remains to be seen if Trump will be the one to kill the republic (Caesar), or the one setting the precedent to make it possible (Sulla).

I have no delusions that Trump would willingly give up power. He has already shown that he will not. But what he hasn't done (yet) is kill the republic. And as the assassination attempt happening a few days after my post should have made clear, he might yet fail to. What I'm worried about is whoever is going to fill the power vacuum that comes after his departure. This shit won't stop even if death rids us of him.

But fair enough, I can see how that might have been misinterpreted. Hence my disclaimers in said post, and my efforts at explaining following your accusations. Which you have so far only answered with more insults. So I really have to wonder who is the one saying stupid fucking things here.

Impassionata ,

But fair enough, I can see how that might have been misinterpreted.

Yeah speak more carefully.

Muehe ,

Hence my disclaimers in said post, and my efforts at explaining following your accusations.

Learn to read.

Impassionata ,

learn to write.

FuglyDuck ,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

and yet Biden... "I think I can win. and if not, MEH!" (paraphrasing.)

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

I prefer that over "I'll decide if I trust the results based on if I win or not"

-binker bitch

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